(anybody who’s anybody in Greece) vs. (press-gr.blogspot.com)
These have been busy days for Greek bloggers. According to Greek government and mainstream media allegations (leaked late Friday night), press-gr.blogspot.com, one of the most popular (albeit not very highly regarded) greek blogs was in fact a blackmail industry. There had been tens of lawsuits by Greek statesmen, clergy, media stars and businessmen who have allegedly been blackmailed by the blog’s (yet mostly uknown) owners in order to avoid having defamatory content published on the blog, in the form of posts or anonymous comments. Blackmail is a felony in Greece, so the authorities can get a court order for the disclosure of private data such as a person’s IP. Allegedly, either the ISP or the blog hosting provider were forced to provide this data, and hence the editor of O Kosmos tou Ependyth newspaper (part of the Kouris media “empire” -and that’s about as extreme a euphemism as you can possibly get) was charged, had his apartment searched and his PC confiscated. He managed to avoid arrest during the weekend, which means now he cannot be arrested until his trial. I suppose. Or, more accurately, I deduce. From having seen him on the studios of three different live tv-shows on Monday. This, I must stress, is the story according to the authorities and the mainstream media. Plus the usual additives put on purely aesthetic grounds: off-shore mediators in Columbia, IP proxying via -of all places- Afghanistan, etc.
Mr. Kapsambelis denies all allegations, including the claim that there was a warrant issued for his arrest. He claims he is being chased for disturbing Greece’s corrupted elite. He claims what is being attacked here is the notion of people’s journalism, that is journalism by the people and for the people. In effect, what is being attacked is freedom of expression and freedom of information. Because -says Mr. Kapsambelis- the people are showing their power via press-gr and other blogs, and the elite is afraid. (some of the scandals that have been plaguing greek political life and media system since last December were indeed published first on press-gr, though in apparently quite noisy ( someone-told-me-they-told-him) form).
In my experience, every time I’ve used such excuses, I tend to be a) less than 16 y.o. at the time or b) really, really ashamed afterwards. I believe press-gr.blogspot.com is severely abusing its anonymity. It publishes all kinds of completely unconfirmed stories from totally unverified sources (including its readers), stories which are frequently cited by mainstream media and politicians as they struggle restlessly for -presumably- ad ratings. This should be noted; While Greek bloggers mostly ignored, or criticised, or even laughed at press-gr, it turns out to have been the blog of choice for anybody who’s anybody in the country. And they are all pissed off.
Thankfully, according to the Eleftheros Typos newspaper, the government has already prepared legislation to deal with the issue of bloggers gone wild. The new law will treat informational(sic) blogs like newspapers. The name of the person legally responsible for the blog’s contents should appear in a visible place. No more anonymity for them informational blog bastards. And if they ruthlessly insist on anonymity, the new law will make it much-much easier for the authorities to obtain a court order for their ISP-related data. Who says our government doesn’t reduce needless bureaucracy, e.g. the need for felony charges in order to lift one’s anonymity? And the media are all super-backing this approach, presenting the blogs like a huge, disgusting, lawless swamp. Interestingly, so did Communist Party MP Liana Kaneli on Monday morning, when on a live appearance in ANT 1 TV channel she accused Wikipedia of “having ruined countless young men’s minds” (I saw it while only 20 minutes awake; it wasn’t a very good way to start my day. It actually made me decide they should only show beautiful young women wearing bikinis at this time of day).
Looks to me like the mainstream is trying to draw public attention away from its recent scandals and blogs are a convenient scapegoat. Few people here understand exactly what it is that a blog does. In fact, I would put my money on the new law being completely bypassable simply by using a wiki instead of a blog. The proposed law reminds me of an older one (also incited by the mainstream media) which forbade video games; I mean all of them. Ridiculous. Nothing but hype. It was approved by the parliament, though. People got their equipment confiscated. Until the hype died away.
On the other hand, it obvious that the Greek political system is not comfortable with the idea of people blogging around uncontrolled. The Greek political system is not comfortable with the idea of freedom of expression, too. The legislation concerning slander, false news propagation and similar media-related crimes is not particularly strict, but the notion of “slander” is usually very broadly interpreted. For instance, if I say a decision taken by a minister is idiotic, I might actually have to prove in a court of law that the minister has IQ<70 (which is the formal definition of idiocity) unless I want to be convicted for slander. Mr. Vasilakis, an anti-nationalist political author and journalist was recently reimbursed by the European Court of Human Rights for having been convicted (although “abused” is a more accurate term) by Greek courts of law under similar circumstances. Also, you cannot say anything against the symbols of the state (”the symbols of the state” including e.g. the undisputable fact that Alexander the Great was straight), and, according to the statement made on TV by the president of the Journalists Guild Panos Sombolos “you cannot say anything against the values of our civilization” (he actually said that as a good thing). Well you can, but someone will definitely sue you, which means you will immediately have your PC confiscated and possibly spend a night or two in jail, until a court two years and 5.000 Euros later finds you not guilty (or possibly guilty as charged). Lots of people in Greece (the majority, I think) believe it is their right to silence disturbing opinions with lawsuits instead of rational counter-arguments. Lots of sacred truths. Lots of unmentionable commonplace secrets. Lots of corruption and hypocrisy. And Greek bloggers just found themselves right in the middle of all that…
Comments in Greek will generally be deleted. To anyone having problems with my grammar, spelling and vocabulary: fuck you.
It’s euphemism not euphimism. Thank you.
Ιτ’ς νοτ φακ μπατ φοοόκ γιού!
I understand almost everything else in your post.
“And Greek bloggers just found themselves right in the middle of all that…” reminds shitting ducks over a double barreled gun.
Are these ducks gonna fly or gonna fry?
Same result!
Clear off …this profitable sky.
You’re right, the phrasing is not very clear. What I mean is your average blogger is a normal person, while your average elite member is, well, a powerful and greedy scumbag. It’s basically like a bunch of pedophiles entering a kintergarden.
While Greek bloggers (by and large) seem to be more like a bunch of naughty kids entering a pedophile party…
In Southpark the kids win.
Personality banana split?
“And Greek bloggers just found themselves right in the middle of all that…”
uhmmm not really
for example
greek bloggers did NOTHING when i was accused of slandering mr so&so and xposing his sex life or whatever
in fact they started writing posts about the limits of freedom and blah blah blah
so this situation is of their own making … and they get what they deserve
perhaps they failed to notice the issue, what with it not being broadcasted 24/7 on tv and everything…
I rub my eyes, in awe and dismay,
and all I can say is… HURRAH! ¨)
One of your BEST posts, in English as well. I understand only too well, why you wrote it. Support (also in English) will be sent over later on today, an English post about your English post.
“It is impossible to love Greece without (first) hating it”
-anonymous tourist
Now that the number of the bloggers in Greece has been significantly increased it becomes more obvious that they are the mirror of the society that they live in… With all the benefits and the disadvantages…
Precisely!
Moreover, as our friend Penguin Witch has pointed out repeatedly in her recent posts, what is at stake now is the freedom to blog about issues that stir up society generating automatic reflex reactions of phobic and paranoid nature, against blogging as such; The general backwardness and technophobia of the wider Greek society is being mobilised, while the Greek blogosphere is waking up from its own “Sweet Dreaming period”, as well as forced to become conscious of its own mistakes.
The traditional Greek mental habit of simple-minded demonisation of “Goodies v. Baddies” simply doesn’t work anymore, in the light of this post and the news it discusses. (at least I.M.H.O.) However, if we are faced with such an idiotic choice, “EVERYONE IMPORTANT in Greek society versus one blogger”, we have to face the fact WE are being blackmailed into something.
The main point is, some journalists, interpreted blogs as the ideal place where you can finally publish anonymously everything that journalism & laws & deontology & ethics & your newspaper, prohibits.
Actually, this would be an accurate interpretation, if only it was made by healthy people. Or if they were aware of other advanced terminology besides “pussy” in google search. Or if this was China or Iraq - which I now believe is very possible to happen.
שטויות, בבל”ט, זיבולי מוח
You mean my post is all that?
hope you read it from right to left and not vice versa.
I thought finding a free on line dictionary and particularly marking each word to paste it there were thetricky part of the whole business. Turns out subtle details like this are always the real bitch.
the notion of “slander” is usually very broadly interpreted
It is broadly interpreted according to who is the offended party. If you have power then you can act as you describe, if you don’t then you can say whatever you want.
What I can say is that personally I wouldn’t be able to blog should I have not had the ability to do so in an anonymous way. And to those who’d feel that this is an exaggerated danger let me remind the case of DD. DeviousDiva on April had her name published in sites connected with the neonazi group Chrissi Avgi; it’s members were urged to deal with her. Or simply just look at the effect psilikatzou claims that blogging with a name and surname has had in her life and how that affected her decision to stop among other reasons.
So for good or bad back to proxies, tor or even more drastic solutions
lol
I wholeheartedly agree, Abravanel.
It was probably my mistake, a very long time ago, to avoid anonymity. It seemed natural, at the time, as many other I.T. professionals throughout the world tended to sign their writing on the net with real names. However, most of these professionals also tend to have little interest in expressing political opinions or philosophical criticisms. They write about society quite generally (or more specifically about society and the internet) but even the staunchest ultra-conservative will have a hard time trying to locate anything worth ridiculing or slandering in these people’s views, typically extremely moderate and/or apolitical.
Anonymity is necessary, when opinions are in danger of causing serious personal attacks. For example, an employee wanting to make a general criticism of typical problems in Greek companies, by drawing conclusions about the company where he works. If he/she is not anonymous, it can become very difficult, if the company discovers it, perhaps even worse if they reply to his comments e.g. slanderously. In the end, if the issue becomes popular such a person can be stigmatised professionally, quite badly.
Many people in Greece are still totally unaware of the enormous efforts exerted by certain companies to search the internet for anything relevant to them; criticisms against them being of the utmost priority. There are already certain new companies that specialize in “eradicating slander” on behalf of client-companies:
They LITERALLY HIRE people to surf around the blogosphere, in order to find their client-company’s critics and harrass them (if silencing them is impossible). THIS is the situation likely to become mainstream practice in the next few years.
Evidently this is NOT just an “academic issue” about Freedom of Speech, but a more serious issue, with grave dangers against the good fame of everyone (people as well as companies).
For all these reasons, anonymity must be defended. In the USA there is special legal protection for it. Here in Greece it remains y outside the legal system. It is therefore an easy target of Greek media hysteria, political conservatism and mass-scapegoating.
Omadeon, what you say strikes me as familiar
Really scary shit!
Yes, YOUR article strikes me as VERY familiar. I’ve seen letters like those you received quite a few other times in the past.
Don’t forget the possibility that some… asshole working for that company has GOT to get paid, in some way; so even if your “misdemeanor” was extremely minor and laughable in its insignificance, HE probably gets paid according to his success rate in locating his employer’s “big enemies” (my ass)…,
(Paranoids with more money are even more paranoid)…
I really can’t figure out why so many decent people are completely unaware that this “scary shit” is in fact quite standard practice already, in other countries. Only the fact that Greece is so technologically backward keep the scary shit outside the… Greek toilet.
But there is WORSE, much WORSE. One of these days I might publicize another e-mail, sent to me over 10 years ago by a well-known “Hire list specialist” who placed me in his “no-hire list” for a reason which can make you laugh, or it can make you feel scared (whichever your heart prefers)
(Follow your heart, with cutty-scary sark)
P.S. correction
“keepS the scary shit”
DISCLAIMER: I type quickly and almost never read what I write before sending it. I know it’s wrong, but I’m human too.
“I’m human too.”
What the hell do you mean “you’re human too“.
:)
WHAT do you think you are, besides being human, heh?
- karagiozis (maybe)?
The Beggining of the end or the end of a beggining?…
Apparently back in my homecountry, Greece, people have been finally waking up waking up to the blogging phenomenon and as with anything new, the knee-jerk reaction is starting.
What is happening is that the anonymous blog Press-gr which has been publis…
La langue francaise est-elle acceptable?
Yea, well OBVIOUSLY I meant non-english comments you smartasses.
You are the one, my number one…
You are my lover, undercover…
Blaxoi.
Fucktard.
Perhaps the greatest evil of all, after what happened, is
THE DEMONISATION OF ANONYMITY in Greece (AS SUCH).
In today’s “Eleytherotypia” there are a couple of pages about the blog issue, and some famous Greek people who were asked to express their opinion wrote a load of bulshit. One of them (a painter/artist) wrote that he doesn’t recognize anonymous opinion as such, doesn’t see any point or value in it, and so on.
I might just be getting older, but I think Nikos Dimou, or mr. Chatzigiannidis spoke quite sensibly. So it wasn’t ALL bullshit.
Which is a good thing, right?
-throughout history, the only thing ‘power’ was afraid of, was logic-
What we are facing here, is another example:
Freedom of speech fights the shadow
of those who hold the power in Greece,
brings fear in their hearts
as darkness is being rationalized.
Blogs shall rise against contemporary obscurantism.
hahaha
That still counts as greek.
karagioz all of you.
It’s amazingly difficult to translate THIS kind of Greek humour, but I will give it a try:
(to non-Greek readers)
-When a Greek exclaims all of a sudden “karagioz all of you” he/she is referring to the popular comic hero “karagiozis” (of Turkish origin) who is a metaphor for the mass imbecility of today’s average Greek, as well as Greek jerkhood (liable for quite exquisit forms of comedy).
On reflection, the true talent lies in the secret ability of every Greek (underneath the austere macho Mediterranean role of “He who is always right”) to LAUGH at himself or herself (or ourselves) just like any other decent ordinary sane non-Greek person with a self-sarcastic sense of humour, which is unusually rare in Greece. However, the bad news is that this ritual of national self-sarcasm, has to be addressed -usually- to certain unfortunate convenient targets. Hence, or otherwise, even the bliss of self-sarcasm, appears as sarcasm towards an _other_ (rather than self), in Greece (Eternal land of paradox).
Or, if you prefer, in the memorable words of j95 (elsewhere in this blog) “There is indeed proof that Greek national identity has remained the same during so many thousands of years: We are still the same as regards jerkhood” (i.e. karagiozicity)
:)
Greece: A country where logic was born, AND died…
or to put it simply in case your mother tongue is NOT english:
‘karagiozis’ is something (like an adjective) Greek people use, to describe a person as being ridiculous (but most of the times it is used in a good sense … a humor kind of thing.
)
heh
“good sense”? hmmm…..
When we say “those politicians, they’ re all a bunch of karagiozi’s” do we REALLY intend it “in a good sense”?
Amazingly difficult to translate, this word has often puzzled me.
Pretentiously false acting out = karagioziliki (maybe) hehe
When we say “those politicians, they’ re all a bunch of karagiozi’s” do we REALLY intend it “in a good sense”?
yes.
How dreadful ! I seem to have entertained the illusion that these bastard politicians will be rejected, at last, on the basis of their… karagiozmanship!
And Blaxes, too.
Your elegant condensation of multiple meanings into one word eludes me.
Several unanswered questions remain in my ignorant brain:
1) The song was for real, or was it intended as a sort of satirical hint
2) The word “Blaxes” was mispelt or not?
3) The generalisation refers to the entirety of the participants, or not?
However, my intent is not to prove or clarify anything, because I think you indulge shamelessly in… ANOTHER BIG HEADACHE for poor Greek-to-English human translators:
You are doing “HAVALE” (accent in the “E”)!!!
(translate THIS word, and I will admit anything…)
Does this mean Olympic airlines will sue me? I wrote a not so nice post about them last October and that story seems to get a lot of hits, yikes…ciao
Hello again, Dr Skittish Looney. Men In White are not that havale-ish, are they?
I think the most dangerous form of typically Greek racism is the discrimination against “different people” quite generally, whom certain arrogant Greek wannabe-shrinks persistently try to hunt down and victimize as supposedly suffering from madness, of one form or the other.
If these bastards received the appropriate therapy for their mental aberration to… go after imaginary mental aberrations in others, they should certainly be forced to memorize by heart the entirety of Ronald Laind’s writings and -especially- Foucault’s radical studies of (so-called) madness.
There is almost no Greek person of any, real worth, little or big, throughout history, who was not faced with threats of mean in white, in one form or another. Formany Greeks, to be creative is simply to be mad; little else (unless they think of themselves).
Also in the internet, such “madness-bashing” activities have almost vanished today (in 2008) but apparently some people still live in the past when the internet’s early days were prolific with such entertaining mob-activities.
Ending this digression, the obvious common denominator between madness-bashing and… blogger-bashing is precisely, no more and no less, than racism against all departure from average “normality”…
Totally ahahuhas, as suggested earlier.
Lithium should be your middle name.
Tzatziki. Sarmadokeftedes. Kalhnyxta.
All subsequent comments by you two guys will be deleted. Go have your little chat at your own blogs. This is supposed to be a post about the freedom to have them, in case you haven’t noticed.
Oh, and almost nobody supports press-gr.blogspot.com, and certainly not me. Key point. Got a whole paragraph of its own. Which makes somebody’s false nick look rather silly, does it?
1. Kouris does NOT own the newspaper where Mr. Kampsabelis worked for. It is owned by mr Giannikos who also controls ”Modern Times” (an illustrious publishing house) and “Legend” (an equally, if not more, illustrious recording label). Hence all these pukey ads in ALTER channel
Let’s cut some slack to that Kouris guy here, won’t we? (I secretly long for a revival of Avriani of the late 80’s -circa 1989- which would the ultimate deep point in our collective septic tank. And Idid read it at the time).
2. Did Liana really said that abt Wikipedia? Provide some reference and context plz if possible
Papadakis show (ANT1), Monday 25/2 about 9:20-9:50 (time i turned the thing on - time i woke up). Kapsambelis was next to her, plus some other blokes i didn’t notice because these two were the funniest.
I didn’t know Kouris and Giannikos are different things
I stand corrected.
What if the Greek blogger uses an American dialup ISP and then just connects to the American ISP thru a greek phone line. This would show the ISP as an American service provider and then I would think the Greeks would not have jurisdiction?
Any thoughts?
Or they could just use Tor
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in DaCapo,
we shall fight on the Sears and Ocean11s,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the chair,
we shall defend our Island Salad, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the bitches,
we shall fight on our high hills;
we shall never surrender
I have never read press.gr and therefore I can not know what the complete story is. But statements such as of Liana Kanelli and Panos Sombolos (and not only these) show three things:
that Greece is the Kingdom (yap, we are a Kingdom) of the senselessness
that Greece is the country where the people see the Internet and the new technologies in the same way in which a 90 years old woman somewhere in the mountains would see a sewing machine
that the population behaves as its ancestors of about 180 years ago.
and the most important, that in Greece there is severe deficiency of democtatic mentality.
I think sometimes that some other european countries can disclaim the entrance of Turkey in the EU but Greece has to lay back a long distance to be in that (ethical) position.
ok, ok, four things
and
democtatic= democratic
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